5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

What are your ideas regarding the Carrier plant deal? Bernie was all about saving the plant. Now he seems less than impressed.

jc @ 7 months ago

Comments (71)

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

it's indicative of how things will go the next 4 years.... liberals hating everything that Trump does, fox news loving everything.... pretty much the polar opposite of the last 8

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

we'll see where things stand 4 years from now

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

I honestly thought he would use the govt contracts as leverage. This is just more of the same old corporate welfare we've seen for decades. If this hadn't happened in Indiana, it wouldn't have happened. Pence is leaving. He can give away farm.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

how would you have kept them from moving those jobs to Mexico?

AMi @ 7 months ago

Addison, IL, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

First, it would be nice for companies to update their american factories. Instead they just milk them while they craft their exit strategy. But given the fact that that already happened, I wouldn't have promised that they wouldn't leave.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

But since Donald made that promise, he had a few options. He could simply have asked them to postpone the decision to consider the possible legislation that would impact them. He could have made them aware that his administration would consider them

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

in a favorable light when the multi billion dollar defense contracts are considered for their parent company.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Those are perfectly legal and don't involve giving away the Indiana tax base.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

You are right though. We'll have to wait to see if congress will even consider any of Trumps ideas. Draining the swamp would help. Unfortunately his cabinet is looking pretty waterlogged.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

Carrier will be investing millions of dollars to upgrade the plant, 800 jobs are being saved (tax base and welfare recipients if their job leaves). The term corporate welfare here doesn't really apply because the tax breaks are really

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

an investment in the future of that local economy.

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

remember when Obama "saved" the auto industry? were you so critical then? I really see this as a pretty big positive

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

You could save all of the manufacturing in the US by simply applying that degree of " investment". That's not feasable. Though I'm sure the application process is well under way.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

I was critical of the GM bailout long before Obama took office. They should have filed for bankruptcy about eight years earlier.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

The manner it was ultimately handled was unfortunate. Probably necessary. There just was no money in the market at the time that would have allowed any other solution.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

It's absolutely feasible if each deal results in a combination of saved jobs, prevented welfare, coverage of tax benefits from tax revenue in 5 years, and new infrastructure investment from the company (which btw provides work to other local business

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

So, you give an equal amount to each competitor in every industry. That would keep the govt from picking winners. Then you reduce the tax base by a large chunk for a long time. The infrastructure suffers because you emptied the coffers.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

At some point you cross the line into something like corporate socialism. I don't see this as a viable business plan.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

The "Green company" initiatives invested a lot more money into higher risk companies. Some failed (Solyndra), some succeeded (Tesla) but the total program is $32 billion!!

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

The deal was a good one for the employees and the tax payers of Indiana. The numbers are pretty clear and UTC is a healthy company

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

The big question is "won't corporations essentially blackmail government now in order to receive tax benefits"? Aside from the fact that corporations do this all the time when moving state to state (nothing new)

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

I don't see that as a very stable business plan either. I thought that was the crony capitalism that Donald was going to eliminate. Let's face it. Outsider Insider Republican Democrat...They are just on different pages of the same book.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

I don't know if the numbers will prove to be all that positive for the taxpayers. The effect on the workers could very well turn negative. Their bargaining position is extremely weak. I see concessions on the horizon.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

That's just pessimistic speculation. Could turn out that way, but the current numbers tell a different story.

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

But you know what's worse than having a bad bargaining position? Having no job.

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

I could tell you about a local community who used that logic to attract business. Worked great for a few years. The citizens grew tired of picking up the tab. They vote down every tax proposal on the ballot. The community is on the brink.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Ten years left on the tax abatements. It's going to get ugly.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

Yellow Springs?

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

B35527b232c45def78db4f6949419182

At least from the his WP piece, Bernie seemed more against the precedent set by the terms of Carrier deal. Like you said JC, I'm sure proposals for similar deals are making their way through legal as we speak.

Tjaden Froyda @ 7 months ago

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5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

AMI... Beavercreek. It's a high end suburb that grew too fast.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Blackmail risk seems real, what's to stop a company that say *barely considered* outsourcing from whipping up a business plan and bluffing?

The Drew @ 7 months ago

Midtown, New York, NY

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

Contractual obligations, analysis of need, import restrictions, there could be several areas of control....

AMi @ 7 months ago

Addison, IL, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

My worry is Trump basically has zero conception of what's good for long term and will decide everything on a 'is this good for my "ratings"' perspective.

The Drew @ 7 months ago

Midtown, New York, NY

B35527b232c45def78db4f6949419182

What could go wrong with that approach?

Tjaden Froyda @ 7 months ago

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B35527b232c45def78db4f6949419182

@AMI - There could be several areas of control. Trump campaigned on adding another one (tariffs), but he has already reneged on that with the Carrier deal.

Tjaden Froyda @ 7 months ago

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How much did this cost the Indiana tax payer? From what I've read, $7,000,000. For 800 jobs

Taco Bowl @ 7 months ago

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B35527b232c45def78db4f6949419182

To Trump's credit though, he really is a master at manipulating the media. The headlines have been all about Trump saving 1000 jobs. I fear that few are digging beneath the headlines.

Tjaden Froyda @ 7 months ago

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0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

Isn't it better to keep jobs than collect on tariffs?? The taxes collected from the workers via the standard IN rate will more than offset the corporate tax credit

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

The idea that every company will now has a knife to hold to the throat of the government is jumping to a conclusion. Looking at this deal in and of itself, I don't see any major downside. 1. 800 jobs saved 2. Positive cash flow for the

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

state over 10 years 3. Local contracts awarded for factory updates

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

B35527b232c45def78db4f6949419182

Is it jumping to a conclusion? Reminds me of the NFL. Build a stadium or we'll move the team. Many stadiums were built with taxpayer money that way...(US Bank included)

Tjaden Froyda @ 7 months ago

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0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

It made sense, if a deal doesn't make sense we'll have to see how the administration works that out. I'd like to believe they aren't going to simply play the role of Tax Credit Santa

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

And many teams end up moving because the city decided the deal did not make sense

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

B35527b232c45def78db4f6949419182

"I'd like to believe they aren't going to simply play the role of Tax Credit Santa" Not looking good so far...

Tjaden Froyda @ 7 months ago

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new stadiums built >>> teams that moved And the deals never live up to the proposed financial benefit.

Tjaden Froyda @ 7 months ago

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5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

I'd be very surprised if all of the details of the deal have been released. Paying companies to locate, relocate, or stay is just bad governing. If nothing else it skews the the real cost of doing business. It may be a case of postponing the

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

inevitable.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

I'm obviously in the minority here, maybe I'm just excited that 800 parents won't have to tell their kids that Christmas will suck this year, and likely next year as well

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

You're right. It's a christmas miracle.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

B35527b232c45def78db4f6949419182

Sure, that's one way to look at it. Another is as an example of corporate welfare.

Tjaden Froyda @ 7 months ago

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0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

No, just a good thing for those families

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

811f304d1edba24fb92ebcd4eeb3d8a8

How much did this cost? That we know of.

Taco Bowl @ 7 months ago

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0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

Each situation has to be analyzed on its own. Government assistance is very common at every level so let's not act like this is some crazy new thing that happened here.

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

Would creating a tariff be the answer to dissuade companies moving their production? What's the price elasticity there?

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

Maybe we can raise corporate taxes AND do the tariff thing.... that would be a big win for the consumer... come on

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

B35527b232c45def78db4f6949419182

"let's not act like this is some crazy new thing that happened here." You're right. Corporate welfare is a well-known problem.

Tjaden Froyda @ 7 months ago

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0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

What are we going for here?? A free market, a socialized market, or something in-between?

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

Are small business incentives a problem? Are woman/minority owned business incentives a problem? Where is the line that defines when corporate welfare becomes an issue?

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

B35527b232c45def78db4f6949419182

Something something outrage about government picking winners and losers.

Tjaden Froyda @ 7 months ago

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5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Most of those incentives involve a small advantage in the govt bidding process. The others are loans at favorable rates or conditions backed by govt agencies. It's pretty hard to equate those with bribing an established company to remain in country.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

I don't know where you draw the line, but I'm pretty sure it's somewhere between the two.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

A small advantage equates to a mandated percentage of an opportunity that must be given to woman and minority owned operations

AMi @ 7 months ago

Elmhurst, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

To be honest, I'm having trouble finding a simple breakdown of the details in total. Lots and lots of opinion though....

AMi @ 7 months ago

Elmhurst, IL, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

If I remember, JC made a bunch of stock trades immediately after the election, any regrets?

The Drew @ 7 months ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Absolutely not. I went about 50% cash. Sold more thursday. Mostly GM. I make bad moves all the time. But this is more of a house cleaning than anything else.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Here's a strange factoid. If, over the past forty years, you invested in the S&P 500 on the day of the mid term elections, then sold upon the pres election, you would have turned a 1000% higher return than you would by leaving your investment intact

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

That was the case before the great recession. I assume it's still pretty accurate. I always attributed that to the fact that the market doesn't like change. And presidents always initiate their big changes during the first two years.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

You have a serious case of factoids

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

I think it's genetic.

jc @ 7 months ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

:-)

AMi @ 7 months ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Preparation H?

The Drew @ 7 months ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

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