C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Case decided today says that U.S. govt can't access data stored overseas by service providers, even with a warrant.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Comments (162)

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit decision earlier today, in favor of Microsoft. User email stored in Ireland inaccessible to U.S.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Kids, if you want to keep your junk safe, now you know how.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

ok well safe from the U.S. government anyway.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

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even for an American company? interesting!

UndrWater @ over 1 year ago

Mar Vista, Los Angeles, CA

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Very interesting. And very problematic

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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good

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

Chaska, MN 55318, USA

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Good? Great! The question is, great for who? The average American? The government? The criminal? Who benefits the most and who suffers the most under this?

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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It is great, isn't it!

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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"Suffer" Interesting word choice.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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I'll reserve judgement until I understand better. My current gut feeling is "weird" though.

UndrWater @ over 1 year ago

Cerritos, CA, USA

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ignore the question and concentrate on word usage. Deflect Deflect Deflect

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Not ignoring. I simply reject the premise of the question.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Of course.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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You betcha. Who do you think is "suffering"?

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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"Is "suffering"" implies currently. Not what I said.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Ok, who do you think will suffer then?

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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I reject your premise.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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What's my premise?

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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What's wrong with following the data privacy laws where the data is physically stored, including warrants for access?

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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US will still access that email, it'll just be extrajudicially. Won't be asking any judge

The Drew @ over 1 year ago

Northwest Harbor, NY 11937, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Maybe. But anything that throws a wrench into the intrusive process is a rare bit of relief.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

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No!!! Not privacy...anything but that.

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Winder, GA 30680, USA

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Criminals across the country are rejoicing!

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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are they?

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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@plc - should law enforcement be required to abide by the laws of foreign sovereign entities for which the foreign entities have jurisdiction?

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Dacula, GA 30019, USA

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Should US service providers be required to allow access or turn over data stored on their servers to foreign entities upon demand?

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Lawrenceville, GA 30045, USA

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Or an MLAT: https://mlat.info/countries-mlats/ireland/united-states

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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I think Microsoft has to get a warrant within any country where something resides in order to access it. If it were a gun or something instead of data that's how it would work, I think.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Even if there is a treaty, I doubt it allows the U.S.to go in unannounced and seize things. They still have to make some arrangement with that government. Treaty may = rubber stamp though.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

I wonder if they tried to get Ireland to cooperate and they refused due to their own privacy laws or something. It could depend on the nature of the request, e.g. a murder investigation treated differently from tax evasion.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

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I didnt say I have a problem with the ruling. I just see how it's going to benefit criminals. And if it benefits criminals, does it help the average American citizen? I think not.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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why couldn't it also benefit average American citizens? are all potential benefits mutually exclusive?

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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yes. that's how it works in Heroes vs Savages

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Grayson, GA 30017, USA

125e03ff143e887a8bee577895339921

https://youtu.be/-23kmhc3P8U

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Loganville, GA 30052, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Lots of laws benefit criminals plc. Criminal laws in particular. This has basis in our laws that presume innocence until proven guilty. We have a lot of freedoms that are double edged swords. Doesn't make them bad.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

The right to privacy from government intrusion often, not always, trumps the need of the government for your private information.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Of course all of that is purely theoretical. Anyone who thinks the government doesn't overstep its bounds on a regular basis is wearing rose colored glasses.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

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exactly. which makes this win for privacy benefit everyone.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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I would agree with that statement. If the foreign government wants to grant the U.S.government a warrant, I've no problem with that. I imagine some countries might say no.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

811f304d1edba24fb92ebcd4eeb3d8a8

Hi! I'm John Q Punlic. I have a wife, 2 1/2 kids, a job in the private sector, a home 2 cars and a dog named Spike. I wake up, go to work, come home, #### my wife and go to bed. I don't commit any crimes. Ever.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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How does this benefit me?

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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How does this make my life better? How does this make my life safer? How does this have a positive impact on my life?

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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helps keep the government out of your bedroom, where it has no business

H2O @ over 1 year ago

Spotsylvania Courthouse, VA 22553, USA

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Provided your bedroom is in another country. SMH

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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I'm John Q Public. My bedroom is in America. I'm sorry I didn't specify that. How does this benefit me?

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Hello Mr. Public, my name is Edward Snowden. You don't know me, but I know *everything* about you. Too much, actually. Did you really think those pics you sent to your wife were private?

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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You also might want to have *that talk* with your daughter. Soon.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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A few years ago, I was a NSA contractor working surveillance. And we were good...We were the Ash Ketchum of surveillance! We could capture anything with our XKeyScore program – even your trans-midget fetish...

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Anyways, as with all excess power, people found ways to abuse it. Spying on loved ones, foreign governments, industrial espionage, reporters, and collecting porn. Lots and lots of porn.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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I couldn't live in a real-life 1984, so I blew the whistle. They didn't like that too much, so now I'm stuck in Russia. ####.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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You asked how this ruling benefits you, makes your life better or safer. It probably won't give you any direct benefit. However, you may not even realize the harms. You didn't even know we had your dick pics, Mr. Public

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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As expected. No answer. Thanks.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Doesn't your difficulty in provifing what should be an easy answer make you think?

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Providing*

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Mr. Public, you may not think of privacy as a benefit, but many value it much more than you do.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Let me guess, you're rejecting the premise again. How convenient. Have a good night.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Your premises suck.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Privacy IS the benefit.

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Winder, GA 30680, USA

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Privacy is one of those things where you only notice it when it's lost. That's why you won't notice any direct benefit, Mr. Public.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Very true. Live in some other country where the government can freely invade citizen's private lives at will, and you'll appreciate just what we the people struggle so hard to hold onto.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

And these days, we the people seem to be losing most of the battles. That's why I posted the o.p.: this sort of result is now extremely rare. Our data is freely gang raped on a daily basis. Some relief feels good.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

811f304d1edba24fb92ebcd4eeb3d8a8

So you've established that there is no benefit to John Q Public. Great. Watching you idiots struggle was entertaining.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Doc, have you ever lived in a foreign country?

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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we've established that privacy is the benefit. can you read?

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Skal, it appears that any question that challenges your opinions are poorly premised. Does the closed mindedness run in your family?

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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You haven't established anything. I've asked a question that the three of you have been unable to answer. Should I ask it again? Please continue to reject the premises. It's funny.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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What benefit do you gain from the 4th Amendment, Señor Public?

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Tucker, GA 30084, USA

811f304d1edba24fb92ebcd4eeb3d8a8

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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This right existed before this ruling and continues to exist after.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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I'll ask again. How does this ruling benefit me, John Q Public?

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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I had the right to privacy before this ruling as per the 4th amendment. This ruling didn't change that.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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I answered your question. Privacy is the benefit. This ruling further protected the privacy you already had. Now please answer mine.

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Tucker, GA 30084, USA

125e03ff143e887a8bee577895339921

Señor Public, how does the 4th Amendment benefit you?

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Tucker, GA, USA

811f304d1edba24fb92ebcd4eeb3d8a8

Maybe you should scroll up and read. My answer is there. Your answer fell short. I already had the right to privacy before this ruling. It didn't benefit me in any way.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Now that that's established let proceed. Who "won" this case? These ruling stem from actual cases. The actual case here was against an alleged drug dealer who fought the release of his "effects". Even after a search

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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warrant was issued upon probable cause supported by oath or affirmation describing the things to be searched.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Think of it as adding a deadbolt to the door of your casita. You already had a lock on the puerta. What benefit do you get from adding a deadbolt? Another layer of protection.

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Tucker, GA, USA

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The alleged drug dealer "won". Congrats. This may cause him to be cleared of charges as incriminating evidence may have been found in his effects. If he's innocent, those files would t have mattered. If he's guilty

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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He'll be released and free to destroy John Q Publics neighborhood once again.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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The cool thing about laws is that they're applied universally to all citizens. If the drug dealer has increased privacy rights...so does every US citizen.

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Tucker, GA 30084, USA

125e03ff143e887a8bee577895339921

Thanks for recognizing that the drug dealer now has the benefit of additional protection to good privacy. That benefit applies to you too, Señor Public.

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Tucker, GA 30084, USA

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Again, I gain no benefit. None. At all.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Did the drug dealer gain a benefit?

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Tucker, GA 30084, USA

811f304d1edba24fb92ebcd4eeb3d8a8

He did. He gained the right to store all evidence of criminal activity in a safe place. A benefit that doesn't apply to me. I don't have evidence of criminal activity that I need a safe place for.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Does the benefit only apply to evidence of criminal activity?

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Tucker, GA, USA

811f304d1edba24fb92ebcd4eeb3d8a8

Silly question.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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How does this benefit me?

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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nope, although it helps the average law abiding citizens very little, it does prevent an overreaching government from arbitrarily gaining evidence without an approved warrant in all countries concerned.

H2O @ over 1 year ago

Spotsylvania Courthouse, VA 22553, USA

7feb020fb3d3aa6cf2752031cf61da89

it really is no different than what the states practice now. You cannot obtain a search warrant in NY, for a house in MN. MN, can decide if your request is valid or not. . NY has absolutely no jurisdiction in MN. . same should apply to countries. .

H2O @ over 1 year ago

Spotsylvania Courthouse, VA 22553, USA

B35527b232c45def78db4f6949419182

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated" Except that Snowden showed it has been systematically violated

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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plc you didn't gain any benefit here. The point is you didn't lose anything. For once, we the people didn't lose ground. It's fair to say that considering that a victory is very sad. But it's our reality.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

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"This right existed before this ruling and continues to exist after." So while that right existed, it has been eroded and will continue to be eroded until we start to value our privacy rights.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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H2O we agree on something else, don't we. It's a sign, when we can agree that our government is in serious overreach mode and needs to be put on a tougher leash.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

7feb020fb3d3aa6cf2752031cf61da89

The US isn't the Lord & high priest of the world, nor is any other country . other countries cannot carry out searchs, on warrants issued by them, on American soil. .

H2O @ over 1 year ago

Spotsylvania Courthouse, VA 22553, USA

7feb020fb3d3aa6cf2752031cf61da89

np there is not an obvious benefit to JQP, other than to solidify & provide clarity to rights already granted. .

H2O @ over 1 year ago

Spotsylvania Courthouse, VA 22553, USA

811f304d1edba24fb92ebcd4eeb3d8a8

Thank you for admitting that John Q Public gains no benefit here. I didn't lose anything directly but knowing that John D Criminal will be harder to convict makes it a loss for me and the general public.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Direct win for the criminal. Direct loss for the people through the prosecutor. Indirect loss for John Q Public.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Indirect win for John Q Public's ever eroding privacy rights. You forgot that one.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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H2O, that's not true. A NY judge can issue a search warrant to Google in California and it be completely valid. Happens daily.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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"Ever eroding" LMAO

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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And you complaint about false premises. lol

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Any rule/law/decision that directly and substantially benefits and aids criminal activity without substantial benefit to law abiding citizens is bad to me.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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That's what I see here.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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What is false about that premise? We know about PRISM, Xkeyscore, etc. from Snowden's revelations. Those are facts. Congress wants is trying to fight against encryption. Another fact.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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So unless you have evidence that those facts are not actually facts, that's not a false premise.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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You do know these programs didn't save content. Metadata & content are 2 different things. You do know that, don't you? Whether or not the gov should retained metadata is 1 thing. Claiming they retain all content another

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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"those pics you sent to your wife were private?" False premise.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Is it a false premise? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M You don't think the government has those pics?

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Are you sure you don't live in that pretend world you were hassling Evil about?

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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It is a false premise. They didn't retain content. I don't think the gov has those pics. Do you have proof that they do? (Should I define proof?)

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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And again, we know from Snowden that govt employees were using these surveillance methods for less than noble means (ie LOVEINT)

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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(Hassling! LMAO! You're pathetic)

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/breaking-the-rules-thousands-of-times-at-the-n-s-a Just thousands that we know about. No biggie. We can fully trust that them with protecting our privacy at all times.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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"They didn't retain content. I don't think the gov has those pics." So you're saying there WERE pics...interesting. Why don't you think they picked them up in their dragnet?

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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PRISM was more than just metadata. It included content. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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You are also wrong about retention. If they do collect it, they can retain it up to 5 years, unless it's encrypted. Then they can retain it until the encryption is broken.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/20/leaked-nsa-doc-says-it-can-collect-and-keep-your-encrypted-data-as-long-as-it-takes-to-crack-it/

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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"Any rule/law/decision that directly and substantially benefits and aids criminal activity without substantial benefit to law abiding citizens is bad to me." It's sad you don't see privacy as a substantial benefit.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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I had the privacy before this ruling. This ruling provides no benefit. You've said it yourself.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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And I've shown the substantial benefit to criminal activity. Even if you have chosen to ignore it.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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You thought you had privacy before the ruling. This ruling clarifies the privacy you have and prevents continued overreach, which has been demonstrated, even if you choose to ignore it.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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No. I had privacy. Like you said, this ruling provides me with no benefit. No matter how paranoid you are. No matter what John Oliver jokes about.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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As Evil pointed out, there are lots of laws that make it more difficult to prosecute criminals, too. Laws guaranteeing due process, etc. Ease of prosecution shouldn't be the end goal.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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It shouldn't. Tthose laws have a substantial benefit to the average law abiding citizen. Unlike this ruling.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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"This ruling provides no benefit. You've said it yourself." That's a lie. I've said you may not notice direct benefit, but that's not the same as saying there is no benefit. Privacy is an indirect benefit.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Racer, Evil and I have also said that privacy is the benefit of the ruling several times. So you are wrong there, too.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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"Like you said, this ruling provides me with no benefit" No, I didn't say that. Repeating a lie does not make it true.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Privacy I've already possessed isn't a benefit.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Back to the case in the OP. The court was unanimous in this case that the Stored Communications Act as written applied only to the territorial US.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Our data privacy laws shouldn't apply to their country just like theirs should not apply to ours. If the data is stored extraterritorial, we need to streamline the process of legally requesting access to that data

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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in its current physical jurisdiction. That requires a legislative fix.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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You may not value privacy as a benefit, Mr. Public, but others do.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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I value privacy. This ruling doesn't provide me with anything that would benefit me. My level of privacy remains the same.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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This ruling helps criminals further their criminal activity. Pat yourself on the back.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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You also narrowly focus on the criminal implications of this specific case. As usual, the privacy implications of the case are much more broadly applicable

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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to digital privacy than you may realize. I implore you to look at some of the amici curiae filed with the case for further info.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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I doubt you will and I'm not going to summarize them for you. But I really don't think you grasp the digital privacy concerns raised here.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Narrowly focus on the criminal implications of this case? It's a criminal case. Something you've completely ignored.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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The privacy implications don't effect law abiding citizens.

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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I am more aware of the digital privacy concerns than you can imagine. I'll say it again, there is no benefit to law abiding citizens here. None. A ruling that benefits criminals and doesn't benefit us is a bad ruling IMO

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Microsoft corporation versus USA is not a criminal case. You are completely wrong there.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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So, since you are more aware of them then I can imagine, what are they?

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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There are many, but please name a few.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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And yes, I'm calling your bluff.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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this oughta be good

Racer X @ over 1 year ago

Snellville, GA, USA

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Also, you are wrong that criminals benefit from the ruling, plc. Just like there is no actual gain to we the people by the ruling, so is there no actual gain for the criminal. It's just in line with previous protocol.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

It's my opinion that you are wrong plc, just so we're clear. Please do not go off on one of your "it's your opinion I'm wrong and not fact" nanny nanny boo boo rants.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

811f304d1edba24fb92ebcd4eeb3d8a8

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/microsoft-foreign-emails/

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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"The government was attempting to seize emails of a suspected drug trafficker,"

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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[drops mic]

Taco Bowl @ over 1 year ago

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Pick that mic back up and get your ass back here. The case before the second circuit was Microsoft Corp versus USA (a civil contempt case), not the criminal case. This is the case with digital privacy implications

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Can you name a few of those digital privacy implications yet?

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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Just because the government attempted to assert themselves in a certain way doesn't mean they ever had the right to do so in the first place.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

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This is how the boundaries of privacy rights are often determined, plc...someone pushes it too far one one way and the court checks and balances by staking out the actual boundary.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

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So it's fiction to say that they ever had the right to do so in the first place, when the actual boundary ends up prohibiting the prior activity.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

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....aaaand crickets crickets crickets

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

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Didn't expect anything different. Bluff confirmed.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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This is the part where he comes in and says something like "you didn't you read the article" and then quote a few parts of it to pretend like he understood the privacy ramifications more than we ever could imagine.

Tjaden Froyda @ over 1 year ago

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...while also dismissing others' posts and links with "tl;dr". Excellent.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

It's a great strategy for winning an argument in your own mind.

Dr. Evil @ over 1 year ago

Lakeland, MN 55043, USA

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