26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Why do so many of the articles about the water situation in California neglect to mention the price of water?

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Comments (104)

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Drew,,, It's my understanding that the water rates across the southwest are in the low to average bracket. Mostly because the infrastructure has been heavily subsidized by the the feds.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

I know the oil thing didn't work out, but maybe a freshwater pipeline from Canada would do the trick.

AMi @ over 2 years ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

98d7101629a5e7bcbaca8c6c5bd9decc

is there an established price for water?

UndrWater @ over 2 years ago

Northwest Torrance, Torrance, CA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

Locally yes Internationally no

AMi @ over 2 years ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Some areas have actually raised rates because of lower usage. Mostly in cities that have lost manufacturers.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Why not allow the water price to rise to encourage more efficient allocation? Otherwise isn't CA indirectly subsidizing more shortage, water-intensive crops, and inefficient irrigation methods?

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

NoMad, New York, NY

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

The cost of water is also complicated by sewer rates that vary greatly. Most are tied to water usage.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Not cost of water, I'm talking about price of water

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Chelsea, New York, NY

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

I have neither. My water costs whatever the pump uses in electricity. And I have my own septic system for waste.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

To me, it seems like a classic case of price ceilings leading to shortage.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Chelsea, New York, NY

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

In this case the sewer cost is part of the price of water. Unless they have a seperate meter for irrigation.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

If they had to pay for the actual cost of the water, there wouldn't be a shortage because the population would be half of what it is.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

There are always compromises. It's definitely too low at the moment. No wonder the voluntary conservation didn't work. Santa Fe allowed their rates to go up and they were able to get their consumption down loads.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Chelsea, New York, NY

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

I believe the consumption is substantially lower in all of the SW. A big part of it is more efficient appliances. New dishwashers, washers, etc use about half the water.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

The only exception is the new toilets that you have to flush three times every time you take a ####. The Europeans have us beat in that department.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Some of those toilets have dual flush buttons, big flush and small. A good idea I think.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Chelsea, New York, NY

6c48fb73634fa41fe7915a7faf370ee7

FloaterMap

Mr. Pink @ over 2 years ago

Strongsville, OH, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Sante Fe is actually footing the bill for a major upgrade. without federal or state tax money. What were they thinking?

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/04/05/memo-to-california-if-youve-a-shortage-of-something-then-change-the-price/ Here ya go Drew.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Yeah that's basically what I'm talking about. But one would think that price factor warrants at least *one* sentence in *all* articles that discuss what's happening in CA

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Especially since we've been through this before with ceilings and rationing with gasoline prices..

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

In a few years, CA could turn back into a giant desert...not enough piped in water to grow all that stuff that never should been grown there to begin with.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Like grass. Lots and lots of grass. I mean, wtf are those people thinking, it's a fúcking desert for cryin out loud.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

actually it's not the grass that is exacerbating the current problem...it's the crops. Farming consumes around 80% of CA's groundwater. And they keep digging deeper and deeper wells to suck more and more. The ground is even starting to cave in.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

This crisis is going to cause some long term economic damage...it's a major source of fruit and nuts for the US.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

it = California

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

75c0efaa27986c943c72b78a0fa61431

There's a good supply of fruits and nuts on Votermap.

srorriM & ekomS @ over 2 years ago

undefined

6c48fb73634fa41fe7915a7faf370ee7

We're just so happy that the Iranians are happy : -) ÀSSHOLES!!!!! I feel all ex Obama supporters owe the world and especially voter map a great big apology

Mr. Pink @ over 2 years ago

Strongsville, OH, USA

6c48fb73634fa41fe7915a7faf370ee7

This is pretty funny when I heard a brawl involving 400 people I said in a interracial tone... Africans http://gothamist.com/2015/04/04/video_massive_brawl_breaks_out_at_d.php

Mr. Pink @ over 2 years ago

Strongsville, OH, USA

6c48fb73634fa41fe7915a7faf370ee7

What is wrong with these people? Somebody show me evidence of any other group in the United States doing such a thing Muslims not included

Mr. Pink @ over 2 years ago

Strongsville, OH, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Doc, I'll tell you what people are thinking - - the price of the water is cheap, so no big deal, let's go for it!

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Midtown, New York, NY

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

I totally agree, Drew, and really why do they need a watering ban anyway? Jack up the price beyond a certain usage (don't penalize people for basic necessities) and make it a progressive scale...with a limit anyway. Still a lot of rich people in CA

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Price is a pretty easy way to predictably control consumption. Problem now is that they have allowed all this infrastructure, physical and financial, to be built up around their fake water supply.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

So their while economy is going to go in the tank now as the only natural water they use, the groundwater, is systematically dried out in a desperate attempt to save water intensive crops like almond trees.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

while = whole

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

They started tapping it deeply when the crisis hit...three seasons ago, I believe. Those guys are in one bigass pile of trouble.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

You can't let the trees dry up for a year or two then when it rains go replant and get almonds in a year. Once those trees go, they're gone for good. That location will no longer be viable.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Fruit and nut trees. All the same. Pretty fúcking depressing.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

https://microeconomicsss.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/micro-1.jpg

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Theater District, New York, NY

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/03/the-california-water-shortage-again.html

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Theater District, New York, NY

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

The other thing is the huge success of California's almond group touting the benefits of almonds. Demand for them has risen *a lot* both domestically and internationally.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

But since the price of water is too low, the price of almonds is artificially low as well. And other areas around the world have ceded production to CA since CA has year-round almond growing.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

6c48fb73634fa41fe7915a7faf370ee7

gets out his god damn dictionary

Mr. Pink @ over 2 years ago

Strongsville, OH, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Well, that's the free market at work for the good of all.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

There's no free market with water. It's a regulated utility.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Not that there really could be one, utilities are natural monopolies. The problem is they come with all the issues of regular monopolies.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Anyway, since these utilities are already regulated, it shouldn't be hard to change the pricing structures to better suit drought conditions. But of course there has to be the political wherewithal, and there doesn't seem to be much

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

98d7101629a5e7bcbaca8c6c5bd9decc

As a natural resource, it's been hard to figure a way to appropriately commune-ize water. It's not a free market commodity. It's also not as "renewable" as once thought either.

UndrWater @ over 2 years ago

Cerritos, CA, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

It's renewable, the problem is it gets "renewed" away from where you need it.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

98d7101629a5e7bcbaca8c6c5bd9decc

True. And it keeps renewing farther and farther away. Or, into the bodies of an increased population.

UndrWater @ over 2 years ago

Cerritos, CA, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Well sure Drew. But it's as free as one can get. And water seems to cost the same whether you have an unlimited supply or almost none, so it's not like the CA guys have a monopoly on cheap water.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

But availability of water is why CA got developed in the first place...once they diverted the river. Like the dykes in New Orleans, fresh water in the Keys, etc. this was never a natural existence so you know it won't last.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

6c48fb73634fa41fe7915a7faf370ee7

wherewithal? I rarely get a chance to use that word in a sentence the possibilities are gargantuan.. mermaid

Mr. Pink @ over 2 years ago

Strongsville, OH, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

It can last, provided they make changes, conserve, and build infrastructure. Otherwise you're just making malthusian arguments.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

6c48fb73634fa41fe7915a7faf370ee7

unique NewYork

Mr. Pink @ over 2 years ago

Strongsville, OH, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

ok so what I meant was, the current situation is unsustainable...i.e. either they change or die. So far I don't see evidence of meaningful change.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

less Malthusian?

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

People in the collective have a disadvantage because the whole system is interconnected...systematic change is most often brought about by a complete catastrophe.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Tragedy of the commons, eh

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

On the bright side, going to visit Panama in a couple days! woohoo!!!

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Have fun

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Thanks Drew

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Use prophylactics.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

98d7101629a5e7bcbaca8c6c5bd9decc

California will likely look VERY different ten years from now (it already looks different from ten years ago).

UndrWater @ over 2 years ago

Cerritos, CA, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Especially if we keep up the incentives for stupid water usage and the disincentives for water infrastructure (overgreenieness)

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Drew,,, The greenies have stood in the way of several projects that promote stupid water use. The continuation of artificial creation of water where there is none is a fool's endeavor. And those projects lay the cost on the rest of us.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

In this case, I'd have to back the environmentalist for purely financial reasons. Although common sense seems to be on their side as well.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Also economics jc. The externalities now outweigh the benefits in many cases involving water. Fracking is another example of water use that isn't sustainable.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

I'll take people over Delta Smelt

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

The real extremist greenies don't want any development at all. These are the ones I'm talking about. Lmao, "artificial" creation. All development is artificial. There's nothing natural about any human development anywhere.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

I remember the funniest thing was that video of Rachel Maddow standing by the Hoover Dam whining about how it's so difficult now to get big govt megaprojects like this one nowadays.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Drew,, The artificial creation I was referring to is the futile conversion of desert into farmland.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

If it's done correctly, some is ok. But with the price of water so low, you're subsidizing a weee bit too much of it.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

What I really don't get about the supergreenies, (by the way I'm referring especially to the specific breed of fanatic that California has lots of), is how they think CA development is *already* unsustainable, YET

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

They are ok with unconstrained peopling of their state.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

How is that supposed to work exactly... I'm just talking under the internal logic there.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

I think most of them would be thrilled with a few less people in that state. It's like the Denver mentality. Once people move there, they immediately become opposed to any efforts to attract anyone else.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

98d7101629a5e7bcbaca8c6c5bd9decc

drew, I don't believe those are the same people. those that wish for constant and consistent growth are usually the big business folks. I don't think the super greenies are advocating major immigration or child birth.

UndrWater @ over 2 years ago

Cerritos, CA, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Perhaps they aren't *advocating * it but they sure as hell stay silent.

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Wow it's illegal to use conservation geared pricing http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-water-rates-san-juan-capistrano-20150422-story.html

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Rose Hill, New York, NY

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

That makes it nearly impossible to use pricing to encourage conservation. I guess they could use fines as a tool. But first they would have to pass laws that cap usage.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

Eae801e1796256f6fa36c012423936f7

Just build a dam already. Who cares about the delta smelt?

Angelus @ over 2 years ago

Johnson City, NY, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Not to worry. Captain Kirk is going to build a pipeline from Seattle. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/04/21/william-shatner-california-drought-seattle-pipe/26111213/

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

98d7101629a5e7bcbaca8c6c5bd9decc

A dam.

UndrWater @ over 2 years ago

Southwood, Torrance, CA

98d7101629a5e7bcbaca8c6c5bd9decc

God cares about the delta smelt.

UndrWater @ over 2 years ago

Southwood, Torrance, CA

125e03ff143e887a8bee577895339921

Has the concept of desalination already been addressed?

Racer X @ over 2 years ago

Winder, GA 30680, USA

125e03ff143e887a8bee577895339921

The Israelis are great at this technology. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-02-13/israel-desalination-shows-california-not-to-fear-drought

Racer X @ over 2 years ago

Winder, GA 30680, USA

B35527b232c45def78db4f6949419182

Carlsbad is coming online soon

Tjaden Froyda @ over 2 years ago

undefined

98d7101629a5e7bcbaca8c6c5bd9decc

Not in this thread. We've talked about it in California during past droughts, and it's a great idea. apparently it's very expensive though. I think it's something we're going to have to do.

UndrWater @ over 2 years ago

Torrance, CA, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

I'm sure the money can be found someplace: http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/2014-15/Enacted/agencies.html

AMi @ over 2 years ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_25859513/nations-largest-ocean-desalination-plant-goes-up-near

AMi @ over 2 years ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

98d7101629a5e7bcbaca8c6c5bd9decc

well thank you. crossing fingers it works.

UndrWater @ over 2 years ago

Northwest Torrance, Torrance, CA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

it isn't a practical solution, California's daily water needs are way beyond what a desalination plant can supply. Where a few are good for are to help maintain reserve levels.

AMi @ over 2 years ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

Really California's only real solution is to receive more precipitation.

AMi @ over 2 years ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

Captain Kirk might be old and perhaps a bit delusional but I think it would be foolish not to consider transporting water in the same way we do other fluids.

AMi @ over 2 years ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

At least he isn't talking about tapping the great lakes. That was proposed twenty years ago.

jc @ over 2 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

no need when British Columbia is so close

AMi @ over 2 years ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

or much closer

AMi @ over 2 years ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Everyone go take a whiz in CA! Right on the ground. Hello, replenished water table.

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Downtown West, Minneapolis, MN

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

That will only work if everyone drinks a 12 pack of Old Style first!

AMi @ over 2 years ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Seems like anything helpful for this situation is illegal or blocked for political reasons. But hey gotta work on that bullet train!

The Drew @ over 2 years ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

eewwww, Dog Style? Really?

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Downtown West, Minneapolis, MN

0eda15e8a4a685a0722949782c90e863

If you want to save California

AMi @ over 2 years ago

Villa Park, IL, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

"Saving California, Dog Style"

Dr. Evil @ over 2 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

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