C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

NYT article detailing prior secret FISA court justification for NSA's mass collection of metadata: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/us/in-secret-court-vastly-broadens-powers-of-nsa.html?pagewanted=all&

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Comments (153)

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Just as I said, the court used legal precedent for stuff like the sobriety checkpoints to justify the metadata collection.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

What I failed to predict was that a court had already cleared it! I assumed it was the DoJ producing an opinion that was the basis for the current NSA actions.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

What I haven't wrapped my brain around yet is the concept that a secret court can make law without informing the people. Each and every one of us are affected by this. How can such decisions be made in secret???

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

441587fe232d918c3a4c8497d22aa156

We make Egypt look smart.

President Not Sure @ almost 4 years ago

Lake Padgett Estates East, Land O' Lakes, FL 34639

441587fe232d918c3a4c8497d22aa156

The biggest difference is if WE throw out this party and replace it with the other WE are still screwed. It is time to get rid of both partys and start over.

President Not Sure @ almost 4 years ago

Lake Padgett Estates East, Land O' Lakes, FL 34639

3ba75abd9c729d64b5648498e8a8547a

How do we make egypt look smart?

don Pappi @ almost 4 years ago

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Repeal, do you think this level of secrecy is justified by TPA? You have the most in depth understanding of that law.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

441587fe232d918c3a4c8497d22aa156

they overthrew a corupt and lying government and all WE do is take sides and bìtch amongst ourselves when the reality is they are all the same side.

President Not Sure @ almost 4 years ago

Land O' Lakes, FL 34639, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

PNS true, but to an extent your comments are just bítching too. Unless you have some ideas for how to change course here...Id love to hear them. I have no ideas myself, but I feel this is a very dangerous thing.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

In fact I feel almost panicky about it. Secret courts bring us into totalitarian regime...FOR REAL. This country ceases to be the land of the free and home of liberty when a secret court can decide to set aside the Constitution without informing

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

the people. HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

3ba75abd9c729d64b5648498e8a8547a

Pns it's weekdays good and bad about america. It's good to have the dialogs, but bad that all sides seem to be more about being right than getting onto the best situation for all

don Pappi @ almost 4 years ago

3ba75abd9c729d64b5648498e8a8547a

Evil, i don't comment on these much because i don't even know what to say. It's disturbing for sure, but at the end of the day we ate mad at the govenment, which is us.

don Pappi @ almost 4 years ago

3ba75abd9c729d64b5648498e8a8547a

It's not like you can identify the exact group of people and say let's get rid of them. Our government had been bought and yet we support the buyers anyway. From big business to environmentalist.

don Pappi @ almost 4 years ago

3ba75abd9c729d64b5648498e8a8547a

Anyway, I've heard the trading freedom for safety brings niether but in.todays age it makes you really stick to your guns because lots of damage can be caused by a few people and how handcuffed should government be in an attempt to stave off these

don Pappi @ almost 4 years ago

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

The government isn't "us". That's something dopey Obama said.

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Sayville, NY, USA

3ba75abd9c729d64b5648498e8a8547a

Things. How much is actually stopped with these programs? I don't know. This secret court is disturbing though

don Pappi @ almost 4 years ago

3ba75abd9c729d64b5648498e8a8547a

The government isn't us. Then who is it..its members are taken directly from or citizens and is not determined by royalty. If it's not us. Who is it

don Pappi @ almost 4 years ago

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

That's like saying "oh they are human, not alien, so it's " us". Most of them are appointed, not elected. It's a special interest group in its own right. That's why you saw all this Washington Monument syndrome shít after the sequestration hit

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Manorville, NY, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Weren't the forefathers suspicious of government? And that's why we have separation of powers and checks and balances?

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Shirley, NY, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

It's funny because Obama made his "don't worry, the government is "us" speech right before the NSA and IRS thing hit the fan.

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

And there has always been a political class in this country. Look at the surnames, man. The political families. Might as well be royalty.

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

North Bellport, NY, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

A government for the people, by the people...indeed, Drew, the government is us, which is why things like decisions made by the courts are SUPPOSED TO BE MADE PUBLIC. So that we the people can know what the laws are. So we know how to act.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

So that we can keep our government in check. A government that makes secret law is a totalitarian government, the very antithesis of a government for the people, by the people.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

And for the record, Drew, "the government is us" is not "something dopey Obama said." Really, I am surprised at you, you need to go to school.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

But if it's just "us', then we don't need to keep ourselves in check? After all how can " we" violate our own rights?

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Brentwood, NY 11717, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Don, I sympathize with you on these issues...but this really is being the pale IMO...as someone who has sworn to uphold the law, I am unbelievably outraged at the notion of secret law. What Constitutional basis did they gin up for this?

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

More top the point, WTF CAN WE DO ABOUT IT.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

I believe Obama brought it up to dismiss people's concerns about government.

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

North Bay Shore, NY, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/15/the-you-are-the-government-canard/

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

North Bay Shore, NY, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Brought it up, sure. Why shouldn't he, it's supposed to be true. But saying it's Sommer dopey thing he made up is grossly wrong.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Supposed to be true. I still think it's dopey.

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Commack, NY 11725, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

It's not realistic at all.

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Commack, NY 11725, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

To the point above, that was kinda my point: secret courts making secret laws is the antithesis of a government made up of we, the people.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

It removed the ability of we the people to be the government, to keep ourselves in check.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

The government is supposed to represent us, but of course that's an ideal. We strive to get as close to that as possible. It's not supposed to be used as an excuse not to worry about what the government is up to, which is what Obama seems to say

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Dix Hills, NY, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

And secret laws and secret judicial decisions, obviously that pushes us a good deal further away from that ideal.

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Dix Hills, NY, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Ok this is really not about Obama. Bush regime started this the TPA...yada yada yada. This is much bigger than POTUS.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Yeah of course. I just mentioned Obama because I remember it was an excuse he recently used to shrug this stuff off. Other presidents have done too

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

West Hills, NY, USA

B63b734d9476a55ed0025f2d37803146

kinda makes you miss Halliburton....

A Benevolent Greedy Bastard @ almost 4 years ago

New Castle, IN 47362, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

There's a mash-up of how Senator Obama would be criticizing President Obama on YouTube, maybe you can find it.

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

West Hills, NY, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Yeah...like I said, this isn't about Obama, or more correctly this isn't about Bush.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

B5542118c2d0317fb8dbad550049edb7

What are we willing to do?

et in Arcadia ego @ almost 4 years ago

Sandy, PA, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Tyranny of the majority is always a major concern as well. It's weird how that's often forgotten about. The stupid journalists bemoaning Morsi's ousting should remember that

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Old Westbury, NY, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Doc,,, I may be mistaken, But I believe the court was set up as a means to quickly expedite warrants shortly after TPA was passed. At the time, I thought that was pretty lame. But I believe that was the justification.

jc @ almost 4 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

And that court was not the FISA. It actually bumped heads with the FISA over wiretaps.

jc @ almost 4 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Approving warrants is not the same thing jc.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

We expect such a thing, got upset when it DIDN'T happen, remember that, during Bush? Such courts do not make law.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

6c48fb73634fa41fe7915a7faf370ee7

so it wasn't Bush's fault?

YOU'VE BEEN WHITELASHED! @ almost 4 years ago

Brunswick, OH, USA

C3d8e2ed711cf2fa95c0fb0976dafe28

Of course it wasn't you idiot! The hopey changey fools declared that obama would stop spying on us and that the world would love us more. How did that work out for you?

WV Conservative @ almost 4 years ago

Sussex, WI 53089, United States

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Right, Bush started it, Obama continued it. Can we get past that for one fúcking minute and concentrate on the actual problem and what could be done about it?

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C3d8e2ed711cf2fa95c0fb0976dafe28

"expanded it" (Fixed)

WV Conservative @ almost 4 years ago

Sussex, WI 53089, United States

C3d8e2ed711cf2fa95c0fb0976dafe28

You are the one that supported it. Don't forget that.

WV Conservative @ almost 4 years ago

Sussex, WI 53089, United States

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Geez some people are stuck on an endless loop. Unless you can say that these secret courts were instated by Obama, your point is irrelevant. Can we discuss the problem at hand?

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

4f2296c5af7fa46de0b9954997a11412

I struggled through TPA a few years ago and thought a lot of the wording was murky and left the door open to all this, but I'm no lawyer. Fisa was set up to approve warrants, and I believe they've interpreted the law to mean that all those powers CAN

Repeal the "Patriot" Act!™ @ almost 4 years ago

4f2296c5af7fa46de0b9954997a11412

be used against US citizens. If you'll remember, it was billed to us as a weapon to fight foreign terrorists and that was no accident imo. The only way we'd agree to this fascist bull$hit is if it didn't appy to US just "terrorists".

Repeal the "Patriot" Act!™ @ almost 4 years ago

4f2296c5af7fa46de0b9954997a11412

As far as what can be done about it... I have no clue. I don't think they'll give this new toy up easily.

Repeal the "Patriot" Act!™ @ almost 4 years ago

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Could the ACLU sue the govt on this, I wonder? They sue or back suits on constitutional issues. What I don't know is whether it is even possible to sue the govt on this one.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

If I could afford to quit my job I would work on this with them for free. Hmmm, part time maybe???

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

441587fe232d918c3a4c8497d22aa156

@Evil & Pappi: I have no idea how to stop what is happening now but as I have stated before the right & left is wrong. divide and conquer seems to be our system now. while I agree there are some familys that think politics is a profession

President Not Sure @ almost 4 years ago

Lake Padgett Estates East, Land O' Lakes, FL 34639

441587fe232d918c3a4c8497d22aa156

I also believe that some start to actually do good and then are corupted in the cesspool that is DC. It seems most start off broke and come out of DC rich.

President Not Sure @ almost 4 years ago

Land O' Lakes, FL 34639, USA

5884dce8e8fcb73c33526a6431b70f41

That is why term limits would so benefit the public. This get rich being a "public servant" must end. We are all being abused as it is now.

No Time Valley @ almost 4 years ago

Bruce Woodbury Beltway, Las Vegas, NV 89118

Ec668eae09619b562068ea5a4a7bce15

The technology exists. It's tough to put the genie back in the bottle.

Racer X @ almost 4 years ago

Loganville, GA 30052, USA

Ec668eae09619b562068ea5a4a7bce15

I think cyber-terrorist organizations (Anonymous) may be our best defense against a tyrannical government.

Racer X @ almost 4 years ago

Loganville, GA 30052, USA

Ec668eae09619b562068ea5a4a7bce15

technological guerilla warfare

Racer X @ almost 4 years ago

Loganville, GA 30052, USA

Ec668eae09619b562068ea5a4a7bce15

If the government promised to stop the spying program... Would you believe them? How could you ever be certain the program is truly suspended?

Racer X @ almost 4 years ago

Walton, GA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Good question Racer. Really could not say, of course the same is true of any government goings-on. Still if secret courts and secret law were declared void and illegal by SCOTUS that is about the best we can do.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

If I believed in god then I would be praying right now that such a case reaches them quickly, that they see fit to take that case, and that they rule decisively on the substantive issue (not dismiss it for lack of standing etc.).

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Maybe some of us on this forum should consider running for office. While difficult, I am sure, it is possible to maintain ones integrity while stationed in D.C. Some have done it recently. MN's own Senator Wellstone was such a man.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

While a flaming liberal, which some hate, he stayed true to his core principles...for example he was very outspoken in his opposition to Iraq even though that was political suicide at the time. He was killed before TPA passed. Had he been alive I

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

am very certain we would have gotten crucial information from him, such as HEY YOU KNOW THIS LAW DOESN'T STOP AT FOREIGNERS, IT COULD BE APPLIED TO U.S. CITIZENS TOO!

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

While political suicide for sure, such information is a critical part of an elected officials duty to their constituents...and indeed to every citizen. Why can't we have more like Wellstone? Why why why why why!!!!

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

5884dce8e8fcb73c33526a6431b70f41

Because most say whatever they think will get them in the door, the door to wealth, pension, and the best medical care available...for life it appears.

No Time Valley @ almost 4 years ago

Las Vegas, NV 89178, USA

3ba75abd9c729d64b5648498e8a8547a

It's near impossible to fix because while we all talk principles and ideology etc. this country don't run on none of that. Money. Period. We say we want money out of politics but allow doners to be annonymous.

don Pappi @ almost 4 years ago

Iowa City, IA 52246, USA

3ba75abd9c729d64b5648498e8a8547a

We say its about the issues, but as we can clearly see whoever has the most money has the best chance of winning at any level of government.

don Pappi @ almost 4 years ago

Iowa City, IA 52246, USA

3ba75abd9c729d64b5648498e8a8547a

Vegas its much much bigger than pensions, and medical care. Thats just the happy birthaday on cake. Large global corperations, lobbyist, stock traders, so so much money. Not just the money going to the officials, the money generated off that money

don Pappi @ almost 4 years ago

Iowa City, IA 52246, USA

3ba75abd9c729d64b5648498e8a8547a

Money.that it makes it reasonable to go throwing money at people to make things happen.

don Pappi @ almost 4 years ago

Iowa City, IA 52246, USA

4f2296c5af7fa46de0b9954997a11412

True Don. But if we all just accept this crap we become complicit.

Repeal the "Patriot" Act!™ @ almost 4 years ago

4f2296c5af7fa46de0b9954997a11412

Very true Racer. We were probably screwed from the moment this tech came into existence.

Repeal the "Patriot" Act!™ @ almost 4 years ago

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

The money situation was made even worse by SCOTUS when they ruled that money = speech...I disagree with that basis, money = property not speech. Giving someone money in exchange for a voter is illegal bribery, so money cannot be speech, money must

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

(vote not voter, though I guess that's illegal too) ...be property. Thus the Citizens United decision should be overturned as bad law. Shame on the court for that decision. What about a Constitutional Amendment putting the reins on this system?

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Can anyone here see any chance of such a thing being passed? If so, any suggestions?

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

Ec668eae09619b562068ea5a4a7bce15

Are the communication companies involved (Verizon, Google, Yahoo, etc) required to be complicit in order for the feds to obtain the information?

Racer X @ almost 4 years ago

Monroe, GA 30656, USA

Ec668eae09619b562068ea5a4a7bce15

Can the companies themselves take a stand against the feds and deny access to the data?

Racer X @ almost 4 years ago

Monroe, GA 30656, USA

Ec668eae09619b562068ea5a4a7bce15

I'm still kinda blown away that this was able to remain a secret for so long.

Racer X @ almost 4 years ago

Monroe, GA 30656, USA

Ec668eae09619b562068ea5a4a7bce15

I've always thought that conspiracy theories were implausible because you can't keep that many people quiet for very long.

Racer X @ almost 4 years ago

Walton, GA

4f2296c5af7fa46de0b9954997a11412

I pretty much lost all hope of real change when I realized Paul had no chance of winning the rep nomination. I can't think of any politicians in the current political arena that I would trust to get rid of these overreaching unconstitutional laws.

Repeal the "Patriot" Act!™ @ almost 4 years ago

4f2296c5af7fa46de0b9954997a11412

And really, they probably would've had Paul assassinated if he'd stuck to his libertarian guns.

Repeal the "Patriot" Act!™ @ almost 4 years ago

Ec668eae09619b562068ea5a4a7bce15

Do you think these scandals will give a third party a fighting chance in a general election?

Racer X @ almost 4 years ago

Conyers, GA 30013, USA

4f2296c5af7fa46de0b9954997a11412

I would like to think so, but the only discussion I see is the blame game. I don't see anyone calling for REAL change, and I don't see anyone stepping up to the plate.

Repeal the "Patriot" Act!™ @ almost 4 years ago

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Sadly I have to agree, Repeal. I was pulling for Paul to be nominated but never really thought he had a chance...the Republicúnt machine was not about to let that shít go down.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

I thought, if only he got nominated, them we could have a real debate, none of this ridiculous posturing and playing false patriot etc. And depending on what I saw I was very open to voting for Paul too.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

B63b734d9476a55ed0025f2d37803146

nor was the demoncrap....

A Benevolent Greedy Bastard @ almost 4 years ago

New Castle, IN 47362, USA

B63b734d9476a55ed0025f2d37803146

we might as well face it. there's no chance of democratic reform. it'll come down to another revolution.

A Benevolent Greedy Bastard @ almost 4 years ago

New Castle, IN 47362, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

So who is the up and coming libertarian these days? Though I don't really think Christie is one, nonetheless I do like the guy. Does anyone think he has the desire to kick some NSA àss??

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

441587fe232d918c3a4c8497d22aa156

this is the most agreeable thread in quite a while but mainly what was agreed upon is under the current political system WE are SCREWED. revolution it is. Verizon do not let the govt have this response.

President Not Sure @ almost 4 years ago

Land O' Lakes, FL 34639, USA

98d7101629a5e7bcbaca8c6c5bd9decc

run-off voting! politicians should never have a smug smile on their face. their countenance should always be a mix of interest and fear. run-off voting requires politicians to make partnerships and avoid the negative. look it up, what do you think?

UndrWater @ almost 4 years ago

Artesia, CA 90701, USA

98d7101629a5e7bcbaca8c6c5bd9decc

it would require an amendment which would be difficult, but not impossible.

UndrWater @ almost 4 years ago

Artesia, CA 90701, USA

98d7101629a5e7bcbaca8c6c5bd9decc

it would require an amendment which would be difficult, but not impossible.

UndrWater @ almost 4 years ago

Cerritos, CA, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Undrwater, we are starting to experiment with ranked choice voting in city of Minneapolis elections. Next election they may do it in the mayoral race. I will be watching with great interest...if it works well it should be trumpeted!

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

PNS, yes it's easy to agree on the fact that we are utterly screwed. What's hard is to try and think what might be done about it. There are some decent ideas in here but sadly none that are fathomable in the near future except mass violent uprising

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Or, perhaps, moving to Sweden or Canada.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Racer, I don't think they have to but the govt leans on them. I heard that Apple held out...refused to cooperate...then Jobs died and the new guard opened those doors in a hurry. Boycott? Would you give up your sweet phone tech? True sacrifice!!!

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Noooo, nobody takes my fancy new Samsung Galaxy S4 - it's my LIFE COMPANION (or so it claims on the lockscreen).

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

C3d8e2ed711cf2fa95c0fb0976dafe28

Maybe you shouldn't have purchased a smartphone if you don't know how to change the banner.

WV Conservative @ almost 4 years ago

Sussex, WI 53089, United States

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Here ya go Doc. A group is applying for an emergency ruling from the Supremes. http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9670X320130708?irpc=932

jc @ almost 4 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Lol that won't happen. But I guess they've got to try

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Actually that's about the only way to go. It's not like there's a lower court with any oversight.

jc @ almost 4 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

4f2296c5af7fa46de0b9954997a11412

The problem is... no one gives a $hit. Sure, we vmers care and debate these things. But your average American is happy with his trans fat and American Idol. He doesn't even pay attention to the news, and when he does, he watches whichever channel

Repeal the "Patriot" Act!™ @ almost 4 years ago

4f2296c5af7fa46de0b9954997a11412

says what he wants to hear. We are doomed because we are fat morons. (most of us at least) I cannot think of one good solution to this problem.

Repeal the "Patriot" Act!™ @ almost 4 years ago

C3d8e2ed711cf2fa95c0fb0976dafe28

(Why do I get the feeling I am being mocked again?)

WV Conservative @ almost 4 years ago

Sussex, WI 53089, United States

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

Here comes Honey Boo Boo.

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

98d7101629a5e7bcbaca8c6c5bd9decc

Wall-E?

UndrWater @ almost 4 years ago

Cerritos, CA, USA

C3d8e2ed711cf2fa95c0fb0976dafe28

Exactly, the liberal media mocking us for chosing what food we want to eat and not bending to the will of soft tyrants like mooshell obama.

WV Conservative @ almost 4 years ago

Sussex, WI 53089, United States

C3d8e2ed711cf2fa95c0fb0976dafe28

Of course the "hero" in Wall-E is a female and the titular character is a week emmasculated man with a smaller laser and spends the whole movie just wanting to hold hands.

WV Conservative @ almost 4 years ago

Sussex, WI 53089, United States

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Drew, jc, glad to see that article...I agree it is the only way to challenge the secret court. There is no lower court that has the authority to rule on its validity! I wondered above if the ACLU could possibly sue...I guess the answer is yes.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

...in theory anyway. I am often glad they are around. Them and groups like them are in many ways our last line of defense against these sorts of injustices.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

(they not them)

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

The case will never get it taken up but it creates some more noise which is always good. They'll get some paperwork sent back and there can at least be another article printed

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Murray Hill, New York, NY

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Never say never, Drew.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Minneapolis, MN 55402, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

I think they should take it up unless there is some bar to SCOTUS reviewing the results of this particular lower court...perhaps it isn't lower, in reality. Or maybe it is not subject to review because there are no adverse parties involved (another

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Minneapolis, MN 55402, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

odd and shocking aspect of this secret court: only one party, the NSA, is apparently allowed to appear before this court...wtf).

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Minneapolis, MN 55402, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

The single party before the court thing should also bee subject to review separately. Constitution requires that an injured party gets to appear in court to have their grievances addressed...again, wtf!!!!!

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Minneapolis, MN 55402, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

I think they *should* take it up as well. But unfortunately, I can't see it actually happening.

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Why not? Reason or intuition?

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

6c48fb73634fa41fe7915a7faf370ee7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wse_hgca220&feature=youtube_gdata_player

YOU'VE BEEN WHITELASHED! @ almost 4 years ago

Brunswick, OH, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Lol

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Drew is probably right. The arguments would be the equivalent of Snowden's revelations. If the aim is confidentiality, that would pretty much end it. The NSA would lose even if the SC found in their favor.

jc @ almost 4 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

The arguments would be constitutional in nature with respect a secret courts and secret law. I don't think this is what Snowden was talking about, was it?

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Wouldn't any challenge require a proof of standing. And wouldn't that require the agrieved party to list specific outcomes that infringed on their rights? Snowden's concerns were along those lines. The actual and potential use of legal positions to

jc @ almost 4 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

undermine the rights of citizens. The foriegn spy revelations, I believe, are an attempt to get the govt to back off. I think the man has a lot more stuff.

jc @ almost 4 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

I agree with JC. Plus, I can't imagine the supreme court wanting to touch it.

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Yeah, sure jc but those are called threshold issues...you have to prove you were actually harmed to have standing...you have to have standing to get to the real issues you came to address.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Foreign spy stuff??? Not sure what you mean. Anyway Snowden didn't uncover the secret court, secret law stuff. That was a NY times reporter.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

I think thy reporter was investigating the legality of a lot of things in the news. The leaks in congeess, the Verizon call data, and the stuff disclosed by Snowden. It all led back to the NSA's private court.

jc @ almost 4 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Yep.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Well not legality...just the facts

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Here's an article on the foreign spy stuff. The timing of his disclosures is what led to my conclusion. http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/06/20/edward-snowden-blows-it/

jc @ almost 4 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

Doc,, Wasn't all of this crap legal? Technically? We had a court appointed by the chief justice interpreting the law. Just like any district court would do. They may have been doing it in a dark little room, with only one side arguing the case, but

jc @ almost 4 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

that was for our national security. But, technically it is still legal. Right? Maybe not particularly constitutional, but legal. Until the SC says otherwise.

jc @ almost 4 years ago

Yellow Springs, OH 45387, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

I thought it's presumed constitutional until it isn't? Or something like that.

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

North of Madison Square Park, New York, NY

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

No presumption either way really, technically. Stuff continues until someone challenges it. In reality, stuff is only Constitutional if it falls under the heading of the specifically enumerated powers. Nothing else is legal. That just gives you

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Minneapolis, MN 55402, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

an idea of whether or not your challenge stands a chance of prevailing. The powers of the courts are enumerated and should not exceed the granted powers.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Minneapolis, MN 55402, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

See the Case or Controversy clause, Article 3.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Minneapolis, MN 55402, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Means that no advisory opinions can be heard by a federal court; there must be adverse parties.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Minneapolis, MN 55402, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Also, one of three parties must have actually suffered damage of some sort, at the hands of the other party. This secret court that rules only on proposed actions of government officials - single parties, where no damage had occurred - are in direct

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Minneapolis, MN 55402, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

with the Constitution at least on this basis.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Minneapolis, MN 55402, USA

5f13389fd6ea4b6de49bacec84ed7d8f

I think they overlooked that little detail.

jc @ almost 4 years ago

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Also there is the related issue called "ripeness"...of a case, doesn't refer to your armpits after working out.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Minneapolis, MN 55402, USA

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

I've always thought the justices decide the case before looking at the law, then just legally justify it after.

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

26e82c69bac3abe48cfce8aae262fda8

And ewwey Dr Evil has smelly armpits!

The Drew @ almost 4 years ago

Yorkville, New York, NY

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Well sometimes they do that. Like Roe v. Wade for example...it's kind of like: "look out, we're gonna make some shít up now!"

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

C767f03aeb282b9660d8157840047228

Not just my pits stink after working out. My husband won't get near me, I am soaked...even my forearms sweat! I take no prisoners when I exercise...anything less is a waste of time.

Dr. Evil @ almost 4 years ago

Lakeland, MN, USA

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